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Poster: jglynn1.2 Date: May 13, 2010 1:29pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

Listened to 5/13/72 first thing today - great stuff

Cliff, did you see the NOAA rpt saying Swordfish stocks are back up? Good news if it is true.

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: May 13, 2010 1:39pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

It's definately true. East coast Swordfish landings are way up! We nailed this beautiful fish deep-dropping in 1600 feet off Key Largo earlier this spring...

Photobucket

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Poster: William Tell Date: May 13, 2010 2:31pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

To all that recognize that to live requires death (yes, vegans: plants SCREAM just as loudly as you munch them...they release "horror!" chemicals alerting their brethren to your dastardly consumption...truly), what I've discovered is that those that fish and hunt (well, okay, Ted Nuggent's a douche) generally have an overall "land/sea ethic" that gets us a bit further than those with a "cause" to outlaw all such activities (while again, maintaining their "species-ist" perspective that if it doesn't have a backbone we can consume it at will).

It is just a fact of the natural world that consumption requires death; you can't avoid it...sure, it's fine to minimize it, and draw the line where you see fit, but to suggest that consumption of plants is superior to consumption of animals is the silly extension of the New Age outlook that makes my eyes roll. Do it for health reasons, do it for reduction of carbon, etc., but don't ever do it cause you think you're ethically making a better decision on life and death...you're just a simple minded sort that thinks fur and feathers makes them "dear" and chlorophyl and phloem makes them your prey.

There is NO philosophical defense for this position. Period.

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: May 13, 2010 4:30pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

We all live on a Mountain of Skulls..every one of us...... " So his holiness goes to bed about 7:30....That's not the holiness I used to know. Ya' know what I'm saying ? He had a whole other look going. Aah...sorry... Sorry...um... " Tom Waits performing in a benefit concert for Tibet in front of the Dalai Lama.

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Poster: beijingscene Date: May 13, 2010 8:54pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

dear WT:

in no specific order:

1. someone (i.e. longnstrange) who "loathes" another human being in the name of animal defense is certainly missing the forest for the trees and needs a remedial course in compassion.

2. regarding "health suffering... at the end of one's life" i think that is the inescapable fate of all of us including longnstrange.

3. re: vegetables, if you put them back in the ground they regrow. that is why they are sometimes referred to as "live" food. i think this is the flaw in the logic of "vegetables feel pain too."

i have been vegan for many years for health and green reasons. but i sure caught and ate my share of fish before that, enough to shut the hell up. longnstrange, 2 questions: 1. r u without sin? 2. u do recognize that your health will also suffer at the end of your life....

sorry for droning on but i deal with this stuff for a living. i explain to people how threatened ocean fish stocks are, and the problems with industrial animal slaughter. but i would never presume to lecture a stranger as longnstrange has done, never mind in public and to conflate it with a jibe about brent (low blow, wounded animal).

longnstrange, if you truly want to influence/lessen this type of behavior, i suggest you spend less time haranguing and more time exercising compassion. cliff probably has mixed or complex feelings about this. he probably does feed his family with his catch (i am guessing, i know i always did). you will have more influence with honey than with vinegar.

sorry for bloviating, this exchange stuck in my craw.....

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Poster: William Tell Date: May 14, 2010 7:27am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

I understand the health reasons, and have no problem with that aspect of your post.

I take issue with the "place them in the ground and they regrow"...not sure what you even mean by that...?

The fact is, all organisms on this planet, in general terms, "take" the lives of others for existence.

You can argue that "we" will define ourselves as different in moving to a level of life that avoids this, BUT most plant eaters do not...when you trim your lawn with a mower, the plants react...The simple fact is 99% of plant eaters assume plants can be killed without concern, but animals warrant a different standard--that's what I pointed out is indefensible. Except by using a slippery slope.

Finally, under this notion, the use of milk, eggs, etc., would all be acceptable, right? No animal is killed in their production, but nobody mentions that...(cruel treatment aside, I am discussing philosophical principles here alone).

Thanks for the civil exchange; hang in there with your health efforts--I do applaud you for that aspect.

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Poster: beijingscene Date: May 14, 2010 8:41am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

I take issue with the "place them in the ground and they regrow"...not sure what you even mean by that...?

when you (or another animal) eats a carrot, the uneaten top reroots and the plant regrows. or a plant's seeds come out in your poop, which is nature's perfect fertilizer. or you pick a piece of fruit. or pick some kale leaves and the plant stays alive. this is what i mean by "live" food. unless you have firm faith in reincarnation, a dead animal stays dead, even if you bury it in the ground and water it.

The fact is, all organisms on this planet, in general terms, "take" the lives of others for existence.

i am making a distinction of herbivores, and i think it is a relevant one. human beings can live without killing animals, and i believe it is our once and future fate. this is a deep-seated faith. i assume you will stipulate a distinction between a plant and an animal? and that breaking off the frond/leaf/flower/fruit of one which will regenerate is different from breaking off the limb or head of the other, which will die and cannot regenerate? if you don't stipulate this difference, there is nothing more to discuss. but i think most reasonable people would. the significance of the difference is another, deeply personal matter....

You can argue that "we" will define ourselves as different in moving to a level of life that avoids this, BUT most plant eaters do not...

now not sure what you mean. i consider human beings somewhat unique in responsibility on this planet. i assume you will agree that carnivorous or not, we are going to have to learn to live in better balance with mother earth?

when you trim your lawn with a mower, the plants react...

you mean feel pain? i do not agree with this. i think they experience it like we do nail clipping. but perhaps you have more insight into grass than i do...

The simple fact is 99% of plant eaters assume plants can be killed without concern, but animals warrant a different standard--that's what I pointed out is indefensible. Except by using a slippery slope.

and i pointed out the essential difference that plants grow back and animals don't. and i think it is logically sound. but we both have better things to do with our time....

Finally, under this notion, the use of milk, eggs, etc., would all be acceptable, right?

good question. unfertilized eggs are the product of domestication, so that's a chicken and egg question. otherwise i am vegan for health reasons. milk, honey, all well and good products of nature as far as i'm concerned. i have lived among tibetan and mongolian nomads, and guess what, you drink their yak and mares milk if you want to stay alive.

No animal is killed in their production, but nobody mentions that...

i don't know what you mean by nobody. everyone responsible i know who does this work discusses it honestly. i think you might be stereotyping. there are many approaches to this practice that are intellectually honest and different from longnstrange's.

(cruel treatment aside, I am discussing philosophical principles here alone).

agreed, and i think we have strayed off topic enough. i greatly admire your loyalty to early pigpen-full dead, and the last thing i want is to bicker about what people eat. it is their own business. i trust you see i would never have chastised cliff in that way, even though i did say a prayer for the noble soul of that beautiful swordfish. i hope someone enjoyed those steaks!

and btw, there is no question that the soul of the dead was in that coffin along with pigpen, another article of deep-seated faith (joking, joking).

Thanks for the civil exchange; hang in there with your health efforts--I do applaud you for that aspect.

applause applauded. bluedevil can confirm that i am a reasonable sort, and don't go around gloating about things like health regimens or national championships (well maybe the latter a little). there remains a halo over durham, or perhaps that is the ozone hole....

the music never stopped.

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: May 14, 2010 10:47am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

I too said a prayer for the noble soul of that beautiful fish. And it truly was a noble fish that fought hard for its life for over two hours.

I have mixed feelings about killing beautiful fish like that. However, I am a commercial fisherman. I earn my livelyhood lawfully harvesting from the sea so I have to get passed the remorse I sometimes feel when I capture a Giant Bluefin Tuna, Swordfish or Shark.

Hopefully our government manages our fisheries properly and sets quotas and regulations so that all species are harvested in a sustainable manner. In the case of swordfish, NOAA has done an excellent job. As jglynn has pointed out, swordfish stocks have rebounded after being devastated by the longline fleet during the 80's and 90's. We never caught fish like that a decade ago. Hopefully one day we can say the same for Atlanic Bluefin Tuna, currently being overfished in the Mediterranean Sea and Eastern Atlantic.

And that beautiful Swordfish was sold. It netted me over $800 dollers. Every fish that I harvest is either sold, or consumed by myself, my clients or friends and family. For the record, that is not me in that photo, it's a happy client. And I release many more fish than I kill. Here is a photo with Elbow from a couple winters ago with a beautiful Sailfish that was released unharmed immediately after this photo was taken. We released two that day...

Photobucket

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Poster: rastamon Date: May 14, 2010 11:32am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

interesting that longnstrange offers no reply to ANY opposing viewpoint. He's right, yer wrong (and a sadistic killer too-lol)he probably voted for Obama (ok, sorry, that was REAL low-haha)

Imo, on a cosmic level, stalking, killing & consuming prey (plants or animules)is a good thing- gotta eat and feed the kids, aye?
Killing for just killing sake, IS evil & wrong.
There is a difference!

Btw, listening to the show, thank you.

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Poster: craven714 Date: May 14, 2010 11:54am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

You must belong to PETA:

P eople
E ating
T asty
A nimals

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Poster: William Tell Date: May 14, 2010 12:38pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

CLIFF: of cours, I could say "you started it!" (pic of fish), I hope you know that I am only quoting from my lectures on ethics, humankind and consumption....yes, this is really just so much more "work" for me, though to you it seems like the supreme hijack...

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: May 14, 2010 2:49pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

No worries Guillermo. The very best threads on this forum seem to contain both music discussion, and some other intellectual diversion, wether it be veganism or scientology. And of course fish pictures ;)

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Poster: William Tell Date: May 14, 2010 3:13pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

Now I am going to most likely get it wrong, but the one you linked the other day about TC (I think) was a GREAT example of that...so much stuff in it I loved reading it all over again.

Yes, I am that pathetic...

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: May 15, 2010 4:40am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

"If you want to grill - somethings got to die" - Ted Nugent

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Poster: bluedevil Date: May 14, 2010 9:27am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

I can confirm the same, but there will be some serious gloating should they go "back to back, chickenshack" (the mantra in '92 - what did the Fab Five ever win?).

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Poster: William Tell Date: May 14, 2010 10:06am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

Well said, in general clear terms.

Yes, I am focusing entirely on those that distinguish plants, and consume the entire plant, often the vital reproductive parts.

Think about it; this is NO different than consuming an egg from a chicken--they are both putative future offspring of the organisms (also, yes, plants do feel pain; this is well documented in sci literature; just "different" from us, but they do literally "scream" [with chemicals] when chopped and bitten...we just don't hear them because we define our world differently).

If you ONLY clipp off parts of plants, never eat fruit (seeds, nuts), then you truly may be living in some sort of harmony with them, BUT they still don't "like" it...

Plants defend themselves against grazing with secondary compounds, they are evolutionarily trying to "stop" all grazing...

Just like "real" chickens defend their nest...

There's no diff tween a domestic carrot and a domestic chicken, just think about it...

Good chat.

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Poster: jacob baum Date: May 14, 2010 12:52pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

Call any vegetable............

http://infinitefool.blogspot.com/2010/05/may-is-jack-bruce-month_14.html

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Poster: bluedevil Date: May 14, 2010 1:02pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

Rutabaga?

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Poster: beijingscene Date: May 14, 2010 12:17pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

Well said, in general clear terms.

Yes, I am focusing entirely on those that distinguish plants, and consume the entire plant, often the vital reproductive parts.

Think about it; this is NO different than consuming an egg from a chicken--they are both putative future offspring of the organisms

i understand your reasoning, but trust you accept there is a different way of looking at this. cards on the table: i am buddhist (emphasis firmly off the 'ism,' dogma style). in positing there is NO difference you are taking on millennia of tradition and 1/6 of humanity. i stand with siddhartha.

(also, yes, plants do feel pain; this is well documented in sci literature; just "different" from us, but they do literally "scream" [with chemicals] when chopped and bitten...we just don't hear them because we define our world differently).

also agreed that something chemical happens, but to define it as pain we would have to share some budding plant matter and discuss the nature of "knowledge" and objective truth of "sci literature."

If you ONLY clipp off parts of plants, never eat fruit (seeds, nuts), then you truly may be living in some sort of harmony with them, BUT they still don't "like" it...

i choose to believe that the ride through our bowels and out to a brave new world of regrowth is a wild adventure, but i think we can agree that this is pure conjecture, neither of us are plant seeds (last time i checked) ;-)

Plants defend themselves against grazing with secondary compounds, they are evolutionarily trying to "stop" all grazing...

this statement intrigues me. please elaborate. grass does not want to be grazed upon? i know some plants defend themselves (thorns etc.) but the fresh cherries i ate off my tree this a.m. sure didn't put up a fight.

i hope you recognize i am being sincere. i welcome new ways of thinking about this stuff.

Just like "real" chickens defend their nest...

There's no diff tween a domestic carrot and a domestic chicken, just think about it...

i think about it non-stop, and adhere to a tradition that does see a difference, and i feel a lot more compassionate toward chickens and swordfish and fishermen and post-pig dead as a result. there is a tremendous amount of intelligent literature about this, just too much badly translated into english.

Good chat.

agreed. and of course in the end we're all dead anyway.

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Poster: William Tell Date: May 14, 2010 12:18pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

As easy as it's been thus far, you've errected a few road blocks that make further discussion pointless (though I love doing it anyhow).

First, you draw a line between plants and animals. Wrong. Period. Cannot be done, except by a slippery slope of "relative differences, nervous systems, etc.". Sorry, but ALL organisms are life. Period. It's that simple. So, the ethical argument that I only eat plants because they do not feel pain, or can regrow is just so much rationalization (sorry). Your "stories" as to what you believe about plants and your digestive system are no different than the Mohawk that blesses the deer he consumes, and helps the herd by preventing overpopulation, blah, blah, blah..."just so stories" (sorry, that sounds harsh, but it's true).

Second, yes, plants produce noxious chemicals in response to grazing. You really think they "want" to be grazed? Why don't deer herds want the sick and weak "killed and eaten" then? It helps the population, right?

But, natural selection/evolution favors individuals over populations, and that's why we all feel pain--to persist and survive.

Third, you are right that SOME parts of plants are coevolved to have their parts, like fruit, eaten for a PURPOSE (distribution of seeds to new areas) BUT humans do NOT do this now, or in the past (few exceptions may be proven, but not widespread).

So, unless you are in a tightly coevolved system with a plant species, the whole notion that you both benefit is just a story, but if you insist on adhering to certain stories due to "faith" and such, we can't really discuss it....again, harsh, but true.

As it stands it's pretty simple: there are lots of good reasons (health, carbon production, etc., etc.) to reduce meat consumption, BUT there is NO ethical/moral basis for implying it's "better". If you come to this discussion with a belief system that simply accepts various stories about relationships, accepting those that involve plants, but denying those of many cultures that involve animals they hunt, isn't that a little narrow minded?

So, dispense with those and stick to facts. Not for life, but for philosophical clarity in this case.

That's all I've been driving at: no body or its parts, in general(any organism), wants to be eaten.

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Poster: bluedevil Date: May 14, 2010 12:44pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

Not even Betty White's Dusty Muffin?

http://www.buddytv.com/articles/saturday-night-live/video-betty-whites-dusty-muffi-36437.aspx

I'm doing my best to distract/derail this topic....

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Poster: William Tell Date: May 14, 2010 12:47pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

Hey, these are my lecture notes on ethics, humankind and consumption...it's what I do.

I can't believe how often topics come up here that actually relate precisely to what I get paid to write and speak about, but that's why you're bored to tears (can you believe people pay to hear me say this crap?).

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Poster: bluedevil Date: May 14, 2010 12:50pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

I'm NOT bored - I'm actually very intrigued by the back and forth. I'm just poking fun at you both.

BTW, Cliff did post a link to a good show.
Of course,I'm over on wolfgang's listening to a 70 Mad Dogs and Englishman show.

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: May 14, 2010 12:58pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

People pay you for this crap?

Just being a member of the same species as them makes me want to lower my defenses and be eaten in a desperate attempt to stop the pain.

There's always a flipside :)

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Poster: William Tell Date: May 14, 2010 1:02pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

"same species as them"?

You mean the chicken or the carrot we've been discussing?

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: May 14, 2010 1:04pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

Probably the carrot. After all, we know how impulsive they can be; explains why they are constantly overshadowed by the more patient potato. Basically, any member of the nightshade family could trounce even the mightiest carrot.

Don't hear anyone complaining about a Great Carrot Famine, do you?

Ummm, where did this begin exactly? Oh, yeah, Cliff's fish. I wonder if it would have spurred the same fervor if he had been holding a human head?

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Poster: cosmic charlie dupree Date: May 14, 2010 1:51pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

God that was a great segment! The woman on the left (short hair) played that role PERFECTLY too.

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Poster: bluedevil Date: May 14, 2010 12:44pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

Not even Betty White's Dusty Muffin?

http://www.buddytv.com/articles/saturday-night-live/video-betty-whites-dusty-muffi-36437.aspx

I'm doing my best to distract/derail this topic....

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Poster: beijingscene Date: May 14, 2010 1:04pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

As easy as it's been thus far, you've errected a few road blocks that make further discussion pointless (though I love doing it anyhow).

First, you draw a line between plants and animals. Wrong. Period. Cannot be done, except by a slippery slope of "relative differences, nervous systems, etc.". Sorry, but ALL organisms are life. Period. It's that simple. So, the ethical argument that I only eat plants because they do not feel pain, or can regrow is just so much rationalization (sorry).

no sorry necessary. this stuff fascinates me. but i must admit to skepticism at your certainty. does not even western science differentiate between plant and animal kingdoms? i am not talking about theoretical fine lines, but clear general principles. most people i know think there is a clear distinction between a plant and an animal. but i see i've got a "scientist" on my hands (sorry).

Your "stories" as to what you believe about plants and your digestive system are no different than the Mohawk that blesses the deer he consumes, and helps the herd by preventing overpopulation, blah, blah, blah..."just so stories" (sorry, that sounds harsh, but it's true).

yikes, a materialist. i just lived two decades with a billion of them. they have now concluded that there is a spiritual dimension. but it sounds like we are not going to change each other's minds.

Second, yes, plants produce noxious chemicals in response to grazing. You really think they "want" to be grazed? Why don't deer herds want the sick and weak "killed and eaten" then? It helps the population, right?

i question this logic and could detail why, but cannot spend more time on this angels and pinheads discussion. i honestly wish you could persuade me of your view.

But, natural selection/evolution favors individuals over populations, and that's why we all feel pain--to persist and survive.

i think the common wisdom in the field is a little more complex than this now? fruit is not sweet and delicious to spread its seed? i thought that was generally accepted?

Third, you are right that SOME parts of plants are coevolved to have their parts, like fruit, eaten for a PURPOSE (distribution of seeds to new areas) BUT humans do NOT do this now, or in the past (few exceptions may be proven, but not widespread).

sorry, you lost me. humans don't do what? eat fruit? eat plants and spread their seeds? i have lost the thread....

So, unless you are in a tightly coevolved system with a plant species, the whole notion that you both benefit is just a story, but if you insist on adhering to certain stories due to "faith" and such, we can't really discuss it....again, harsh, but true.

i do insist on adhering to my veganism, but your reduction of it to faith alone is missing the forest for the trees (sorry, the puns are unintended). here is my national championship address: sds23@duke.edu. i am happy to continue this conversation until we are both tuckered out. question: do you think there are phenomena present western science or you cannot explain with certainty?

As it stands it's pretty simple: there are lots of good reasons (health, carbon production, etc., etc.) to reduce meat consumption, BUT there is NO ethical/moral basis for implying it's "better".

i sure wish i could share your capital NO certainty about anything. if you know this, can you tell me where we go when we die? (i want to place a bet). can you logically/scientifically disprove the existence of karmic law?

If you come to this discussion with a belief system that simply accepts various stories about relationships, accepting those that involve plants, but denying those of many cultures that involve animals they hunt, isn't that a little narrow minded?

i know from first hand experience that there are cultures where eating animal products at least is necessary for survival. tibetan buddhists eat yaks that die naturally. you will never see me use upper case NO about anything in this magical mystical existence. i do not think we are capable of that level of certainty.

So, dispense with those and stick to facts. Not for life, but for philosophical clarity in this case.

That's all I've been driving at: no body or its parts, in general(any organism), wants to be eaten.

10-4. over and out. gotta go cut the grass (seriously) ;-). thanks for riffing. i am happy to let bluedevil moderate a debate. dukies never flop and get cheap charging calls ;-)

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Poster: William Tell Date: May 14, 2010 1:15pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

Yikes--so many jumps there I don't know where to begin...

I am sorry to say, you do not stick to the topic(s).

One LAST clarification: not a materialist; that point was "multicultural". How is YOUR Buddist system "better" than the Mohawks? They "BELIEVE" as you do for plants, that animals benefit by being hunted. Defense?

Re-read your posts: you KNOW too much, not me (the many lines in which you say "I know...", "I believe"). When I say we have established plants produce secondary compounds to defend themselves it's based on thousands of publications. If you deny those, we're truly done.

Yep, you have a SKEPTIC on your hands first and foremost, only second, a scientist...but, to make you feel better, I do have a Phud in Philosophy. I've been lecturing and writing on this topic for 35 yrs...not that this will mean squat, but I am not just whistling Dixie.

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: May 14, 2010 1:22pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

Ahh, but if you could squat while whistling Dixie, that would change the whole ballgame. I know certain people who might pay to see that, and you don't even need a degree.


Please don't make me drag this even farther down, for nothing would give me greater pleasure.


Seriously though, kudos for an excellent arguement. Has provided some great reading during an especially slow Friday.

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Poster: William Tell Date: May 14, 2010 2:03pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

Well played.

[this still leaves unanswered why I do this, but...topic for another day]

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: May 14, 2010 3:24pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

"Plants defend themselves against grazing with secondary compounds, they are evolutionarily trying to "stop" all grazing..."

Not the ones in my garden.

They defend themselves by being fortunate enough to be growing in my square foot beds. Virginia is a "castle doctrine" state. Cross my moat and come at my zucchini and you will likely be "processed" with a Marlin .444 (the Barrett is just too damn big) and end up in my black compost.

And just what do I feel you may ask?

A pretty healthy recoil.

But I don't shoot fish.

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Poster: William Tell Date: May 14, 2010 3:58pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

Actually, if you care, it is precisely because we have "domesticated" them that those secondary compds no longer are an issue...and I applaud you for taking that farming methodology to the lengths that you and the family have! Cont'ing a fine tradition...

All I have tried to focus on through all of this is the fallacy of claiming "plants are different enough from animals that I am holier than whomever if I only eat plants because they don't feel pain, try to avoid being eaten, blah, blah, blah".

BejScene misses the pt entirely: of course plants ARE different, BUT not in the key respects germane to the ethical issue at hand...they do feel something akin to "pain", they have responded evolutionarily by attempting to minimize this activity (grazing), and thus, the only logical conclusion is they are do different in these key respects to the chickens we take eggs from...

But, though I always benefit by babbling on about such esoteric matters (since I actually do get paid to think, write, talk and refine my perspective on all things biological), I am confident the rest of you would be better served if I just STFU every now and again.

So, I will.

Hope the spring is treating you and all of your subdued and productive inmates well (the plants, which I agree, may in fact be the happier for the tender care they rec' from you and yours!)...good luck with the harvest, all season(s) long, Mando!

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: May 14, 2010 4:22pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

So not to kick the can down the road anymore.....(boot)

What about he plants that need a good cutback that double their output? We cut a bunch of arugula and buttercrunch lettuce early this week and the site where we cut has sent out two new shoots each.

I'm sorta going with the "live to serve" mantra.

Here's an update - http://www.flickr.com/photos/41761556@N08/4595836415/

Compare the amount of growth from a month ago - the second pic in the series is a link back to the SFG beds in early April.

We have been picking a pint of strawberries every day for a week now. Blueberries should be coming in in a month and a half and my Apache thornless blackberry bush has about 200 fruit on it right now, and is still full of blooms. The black currant is blooming and my white currant bush has enough fruit on it to make jam.

Can't wait for my habaneros to bear fruit - I believe you when you talk about their defense mechanism. Those most definitely DO NOT go quietly into the dark night.

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Poster: William Tell Date: May 14, 2010 4:35pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

Oh yes, absolutely true...but, it only supports the "individual's drive to survive/reproduce" perspective, NOT the notion that they are doing it to be "good" (though they are from your perspective).

To use our chicken example again, every time you take an egg, the hen lays another...in nature this is "replacement due to loss from a predator" but no one would look at this as an example of the chicken "likes to make eggs for the fox" that keeps taking them...

Right?

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: May 14, 2010 4:39pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

"Right?"

Again.

As usual.

I suppose you could make the argument that left unharvested, the arugula and buttercrunch would bolt and flower and go to seed sooner than if periodically "thinned".

But therein lies the slippery slope referenced earlier. By cutting them back (purely for my benefit a la my salad plate) I force them to respond in such a manner so as to produce more - whether it be out of a defensive posturing or self preservation response.

My issue with harvesting - whether it's a plant or and animal - is to only harvest what I am going to use. And I make a very concerted effort to only plant as much as I plan on using. I think that makes me a responsible steward of the Square Foot approach.

With respect to animals - I used to hunt all the time growing up and with very few exceptions, I ate everything I took. Same approach to fishing - if I don't catch and release I eat it. And I do feel very guilty on that rare occasion when I have a bad hook set and the fish swallows the lure. I'll typically cut the line and let the hook dissolve - hoping that the gut hook set doesn't end up killing the fish.

Very interesting discussion this evening.......

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Poster: William Tell Date: May 14, 2010 5:36pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

Oh yeah, right there with you on that (harvesting ethic/conservation in general/etc)...my only concern was with the original implication of "ethical superiority" of vegans provided by long&strange...and BejScene was not taking the "hard line", so it was a nice little back and forth (I just get cranky easily, so sometimes slip up rather than remaining patient as I should; and we did cross a few "faith/belief/etc" boundaries that in general, are a signal that you are not going to get much further in presenting your ["mine"] position...I just never know when to let go, as you've noticed!).

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Poster: beijingscene Date: May 14, 2010 10:13pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

All I have tried to focus on through all of this is the fallacy of claiming "plants are different enough from animals that I am holier than whomever if I only eat plants because they don't feel pain, try to avoid being eaten, blah, blah, blah".

dear WT and mandojammer:

sorry, i was out in the garden (seriously). WT: i know about your impressive credentials. i don't lack for them myself. but your above is reductio ad absurdum. please feel free to let this post go straight to compost, but i never claimed "holier than whomever." i follow a millennia-old tradition that works for me and hundreds of millions of other human beings that i think you are blithely dismissing by ascribing characteristics to it that it does not claim or possess. i too am a skeptic, of overcertainty of anything, academic degrees notwithstanding. like you, i do this for a living. what i also do is grow all my own food.

mandojammer, kudos on the SFG. here is a video of our acre under cultivation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AezmqPcfQ0&;feature=player_embedded

thank you for chiming in, i was getting tired of playing the [jack] straw man. i am confident that you followed my logic. i was claiming none of the things WT ascribed to me. i live off of what i grow and teach inner-city kids and others how to do the same. i try not to kill any animals, per a millennia-old teaching i was lucky enough to be initiated into and follow. if WT feels the need to deride that as superstition, so be it, it is nothing i have not heard before.

WT, a humble request for a link to your lectures on ethics, humankind and consumption. i will gladly reciprocate with links to my writing, which you could sleuth out easily enough anyway. i know who i am talking to but i don't think you are similarly informed. i know you are most likely to encounter a knee-jerk ideologue ala longnstrange on this forum, but i am the exception to the rule and wish you had treated my views with a little less crankiness and a little more respect, i believe they are worthy of it.

We are stardust, we are golden, We are billion year old carbon
And we got to get ourselves back to the garden

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Poster: William Tell Date: May 15, 2010 7:39am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

With all due respect then BejScene, I may have gotten it wrong...your are right that my statements above were the "original" ones that deal with the stereotypical vegans, and the implication of long&srg's orig post.

However, if you re-read your posts, for most every expression of my perspective, your item by item reply was a listing of "huh?" or "I believe this" and so on, and so forth.

Very polite, but when one says, "science supports the sky is blue, and therefore" the response of "well, I happen to believe the sky is..." (over-stated, but this was the tone and implication, IMHO of your replies...no?) it eventually causes a bit of crankiness to creep in, eh?

So, if you're now saying you have no problem with plants sharing the same critical components with animals (this was a vital example of the argument gone south: when I said plants and animals are similar, in the KEY respects under discussion, you diverted the discussion with a non-sense "but all agree they are diff!" Of course they are, but they are similar in the KEY respects [pain, etc.]), then you're right...

We have no disagreement. And if you don't hold the stereo-typical holier than thou attitude, great, but it does come thru in some of those exchanges with all the great things you do...just as my snobbish, intellectualist overly analytical pain in the ass won't STFU know it all scientist personality comes thru in mine, I am sure.

So, with all of that, excuse my frustration at having been thwarted at every turn by your responses, and reacting poorly, but patience on web writing is NOT my virture...nor is beating my head against the wall. Last, I do appreciate your kind offer of cont'ing it, but concluded after our first exchange or two it won't do either of us any good...I know you are NOT one of the "creationist" ilk, but it's similar in that those adhering to faith/belief systems simply cannot be impacted by arguments based on the substantive material world in which spiritualism is denied. So, why would we bother, right? We'd both end up worse for wear!

I'll close by saying once more, sorry if I miss interpreted your posts, but I don't think you really wanted the "scientific perspective" (which is fine for you), having long ago rejected that as unsatisfying, which I can understand as well.

If you really do want to know more, research "plant secondary compounds"; "species-ist perspectives in animal welfare"; and "repudiation of Aristolte's tree of life". Seriously, these will help in showing the false distinction among plants and animals, again with the key issues at hand...

Truce?

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: May 15, 2010 7:19am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

beijscene -

"i live off of what i grow and teach inner-city kids and others how to do the same."

I'm sure you are familiar with Will Allen's work with Growing Power in Milwaukee. Simply amazing work from a great human being. "Grow. Bloom. Thrive."

I would love to have a lot that size to work with. Even better, it would be nice if Old Dominion University would put together a program like this.

Although Mrs. Mando keeps me busy enough with our effort. I don't know if you caught it in her writeup on her flickr series, but we have harvested and eaten from our SFG beds every month since April-May 09. We had two bumpers of peppers last year and were it not for the November Nor'easter would have had Anaheim and jalapeno peppers well into November.

This post was modified by Mandojammer on 2010-05-15 14:19:12

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Poster: bluedevil Date: May 13, 2010 2:51pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

49 seconds in ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxA0a5G6ccg

Might recognize a few folks before then (in younger days)

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Poster: William Tell Date: May 13, 2010 3:17pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

Excellent! Anything with Fry/Hugh has to be good!

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Poster: jglynn1.2 Date: May 14, 2010 12:18pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

fookin great


Up Scumbag College

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Poster: Longnstrange Date: May 13, 2010 1:57pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

Disgusting! You killed a beautiful being. And at the end of your murder spree of a life it will be your health that suffers also. I knew I didn't like you the moment you said a bunch of negative shit about the Dead (Brent in particular). Now I know you kill beautiful creatures needlessly. I especially loathe the way you post a picture of yourself next to your kill. You are a trophy killer! You killed for ego alone! Nobody in your family was starving and needed you to do that. You suck! Truly. Kind of like a bullfighter. The lamest kind of person really. One who would gloat over killing an innocent. Goddess help us all from man and his thirst for blood and ownership.

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: May 13, 2010 3:09pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

Extremely well done satire ! The TOO just sucked my face in.....6' in....yeah

This post was modified by micah6vs8 on 2010-05-13 22:09:58

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Poster: cousinkix1953 Date: May 13, 2010 6:32pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt287/atakacorp/OXOTA_MAY/OxotaMay013.jpg
This is what's going on in Grateful Dead country. A teenager, her commie rifle, and a dead pig on the banks of the Russian River last weekend...

This post was modified by cousinkix1953 on 2010-05-14 01:32:59

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Poster: bluedevil Date: May 14, 2010 9:45am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

Pighunt?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79Ecc6_dqzQ

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Poster: jglynn1.2 Date: May 14, 2010 4:34am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

Excellent

Nice sized swordfish